A big Thank You to @neversnowbored for bringing my attention to the "Retraction Turn" and the hip placement differences across carving styles... Let's consolidate the style discussions here please.
So this morning I came across this reel and some things finally clicked for me:
So I see now how the "extreme" stance angles enable this hip and back knee position as @neversnowbored has been describing. Notice how LakeTahoeCarver's back knee is pointed towards his nose, but notice also how his hips are over his back foot and his shoulders are over his front foot. This is (to my mind) a massive exaggeration of the "bowing" motion I use when I need extra grip. The front leg is mostly straight but the hips are back. (With full recognition that there are many different "Asian Styles" of carving, for simplicity let's refer to this as "Asian Style" for now and until we start distinguishing JBSA and SAJ for example.)
Now compare this with Jasey's heelside initiation position:
Still a straight front leg but far less bowing (more upright upper body). Jasey keeps his centre of mass over the front of the board by moving the hip towards the nose.
This is what I'm trying to point out. Both riders have their COM near the nose but their hips are in wildly different positions. (But actually Jasey's COM is much further forward than LakeTahoeCarver's, who is bringing his COM somewhat forward with his upper body by bowing at the hips.)
Jasey is demostrating classic "Race Style" freecarving. Jasey was showing me this "hip forward" motion when he was here in January and then I saw another ex-racer teaching the same movement at MCC in February. Hip slides towards the nose on heelside initiation with the front leg mostly straight.
I did a few laps trying Jasey's technique and it was interesting and informative, but it's not my preferred positioning for freecarving. My own technique might be viewed as a combination of these two styles, ending up somewhere in the middle.
So my COM is in about the same place as Jasey's (over the front foot), my hips are more forward than LakeTahoeCarver (LTC) but I also have a bit of the bowing motion in my hips than Jasey, but far less than LTC. My back knee is somewhere in between LTC's, which is pointing at the nose, and Jasey's which is pointing over the toe edge.
My shoulders are also between these two others. Jasey likes to leave his shoulders open so he can adapt quickly to imperfections in the surface and initiate the toeside very quickly too. So his hips are facing forward but his upper body is counter-rotated. LTC has his shoulders rotated into the turn far more. I like to bring the shoulders into the turn and get both hands on the snow when I'm able, but this is the steepest groomed run in Revelstoke and I naturally left a bit of room for error here, without even realizing it in the moment.
I developed my technique over many years, mostly by feel, and without the benefit of the troves of video available today. We can call this "Pencil Line" or "Canadian Style", whatever. My biggest influence in my formative years was probably @dredman and the North American hardbooters, though I wanted to achieve a near-perfect track without exaggerating any of the motions (like bending in the knees or bowing over the nose), so as to make it look easy and natural, letting the board do the work. @dredman was an inspiration, so consistent and so confident, but to me he was bending in the lower body more than I wanted to. I would bend low when I needed to for grip, imitating his style, but I tried to remain tall when it was possible, without breaking at the knees or hips.
This, to me, remains the ultimate carving aesthetic: perfect track on the steepest runs with minimal body movements and minimal energy expenditure. I think maybe that aesthetic crossed over from rock climbing, where efficiency is always stylish, and making it look easy is the hardest part!
Anyway, that's all the time I have for today... I want to create a long-form YouTube video this season that delineates and demonstrates some different carving styles. Consider this a first draft. Feedback is very welcome!
I'm just slaying...
Happy to contribute.
Just to provide some context and nuance: (all @ references are insta handles)
@kazunorihirama “Rama” helped kickstart two offshoot of soft boot “extreme” forward stance
“Infinity”-Japanese speed carving style which is much more race/fall-line focused (LTC seems to have a bit more influence from Infinity)
“FUNxR”- an offshoot created by @carving_trick. G-force carving style which is more focused on angulation and transferring speed into g’s
Not sure if JSBA is also an offshoot but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were. They are much more static with their hip movements and are more focused on momentum conservation and energy efficiency as James has described.
With regards to the above and only from the perspective of FUNxR riding:
- Body leads the board. Chest to the knee is loading up the spring. Also naturally engages the nose of the board to initiate the turn.
- Lowest point is the fall line so you naturally shift your weight back and accelerate as you decamber the board while bending your hip.
- Unload the spring (tail) while “kicking” your back foot and hips for a tail pop to complete the retraction turn.
- The above is what we call the “swing,” mimicking a swinging motion not only fore/aft but also high/low
Some points about the stance:
- Highly efficient at generating edge pressure since your joints are aligned allowing you to “follow through” with your hips the end of your turn
- Highly efficient for edge hold. Front knee straight to provide stability for initiation to plow through crud. Back knee bent and pressed in to absorb the what you can’t plow through.
- Back knee pressed in has the bottom half of your board’s edge engaged with significant edge pressure so you are less likely to wash out from heel/toe transitions
- Wide stances (62cm) enables the above and also allows for squatting on your back foot to get even lower
Would also like to encourage nuance in the discourse vs grouping as “Asian carving”. James touched on this a bit and completely understand that information for Western carvers is very limited so there isn’t much existing info out there in English so trying to bridge the gap a little.
Also want to note I’m still a progressing student and have not mastered the above, but my coach has been incredible to facilitate the progression.
Would recommend for some expert riders of the above described riding style @carick_paper; @clock_cs; @funxr_monkey; @carick_queenzy
Hello,
Since some Japanese organizations were mentioned, I thought I’d join the discussion. SAJ and JSBA are both Japanese instructor associations. I also maintain my SAJ instructor license, and my impression is that SAJ tends to emphasize “snowboard operation starting from the board itself,” while JSBA puts more focus on the philosophy of “controlling the board through body movements.”
RAMA @kazunorihirama was an athlete active in SAJ, and infinity originally had many top-level SAJ riders (though nowadays it also includes racers and riders from China and Korea regardless of affiliation). As a result, the members’ upper body styles are quite individual, and they also incorporate a lot of ground tricks. FUNxR seems to have branched out from there. It’s mainly made up of Korean members, and judging from their riding and setups, I feel their foundation is based on RAMA’s riding style around 2016–17, when he was on a long hammerhead board.
One of their key features is a very wide stance and “posi-posi” binding angles (for example, RAMA is 168 cm tall, with a 60 cm stance width and 36°/27° angles).
There’s also another video label called GTS, which mainly features JSBA riders. Their videos focus mostly on carving turns without tricks, and many of the riders in that label use angles closer to 30°/0°.
I used to regularly ride in the wide, posi-posi stance style of RAMA and FUNxR myself. It makes it easier to drop the pelvis toward the end of the turn, which in turn allows you to lock the front leg while letting the back leg create space for release. On the other hand, it puts a twisting load on the back knee, so riders like me with fragile knees need to be cautious.
Personally, I’ve been captivated by Jasey’s riding, so my goal is a style that blends Canadian carving with the speed of alpine snowboarding.
I’d love to hear your thoughts as well. And if there are any Japanese riders you’re curious about, I might be able to share some insight into their riding roots.
@wild-cherry those were super fun years At Targhee! I can also say my riding has been shaped by you.
My 2 cents on the style topic is this. Learn them all. Pick out the parts that work for you. Learn what conditions they work best in for you. Then build YOUR style!
Some styles only work on certain slopes, snow conditions and visibility. Pay close attention to what conditions the riders you are wanting to emulate are riding in.
Learning lots of styles (and knowing when to use them) will broaden the range of conditions you are having fun in.
Now watch a bunch of videos, keep healthy and strong. Winter is coming.
I posed some questions here:
But yeah, let's keep the style discussion in this thread.
I think this partially comes down to how you move your centre of mass...
I've heard the American style is more like a joystick, flopping your COM around and changing the weighting of the edge. This is generally more of an up-unweighted, cross-over turn... Saving retractions for less of an up-unweighted turn or a quick cross-under.
With the Asian styles, it seems like the COM stays a bit more centred (with the hips over the rear and the shoulders over the front), and edge pressure (rather than simply the weight) is applied through the legs. They're generally down-unweighted, so the retraction is more of a necessity. I think this is generally quicker, but more exhausting.
That's just my perspective, it's really interesting to hear others.
Big White, BC, Canada
Thanks to everybody for chiming in! There is a lot of information to process and research to do before I'll be ready to publish anything good on carving styles... I'll come back with a second draft in a few weeks. I should reach out to @carverarcalis too, he's done a lot of animations for different carvers and likely has a good feel for the differences.
I'm just slaying...
Style is an aesthetic and should not be the key factor when learning something, at least, when it comes to learning things in the most functional way possible. It's like people arguing whether Muay Thai is better than Karate, or if a Soviet style of boxing is better than a Peek-a-boo style that Mike Tyson used. And in the case of MMA/combat sports, fights rarely, if ever, happen where it's "purely" a certain style. Not to mention that most martial arts have very similar movement patterns (i.e. a jab), then they do difference wise.
If your goal is to chase a certain look or feeling, then pursuing a certain style can help. However, if you understand the fundamentals, carving, or any other skillset, will make much more sense, and as a result you will be able to learn style.
@spar_snb Wow - I dream of doing a elegant heel-side turn like yours - as a former rock climber I look to be as efficient as possible and minimize body movements - similar to James’ vision of perfect pencil line turns.
this season, I will continue to work on letting my CG flow down the fall line with smooth quick “finishiations”. The way JJA let his CG fall way over as he is engaging his heel-side is what I’ll be aiming for. But- not to likely to achieve 😎😎😎
looking forward to riding the ALC64 binding on my Virus Phantom V too - thank you for you assistance there and your insights 🎉🚀🙏❤️🔥
The way JJA let his CG fall way over as he is engaging his heel-side is what I’ll be aiming for. But- not to likely to achieve
Well certainly not with that attitude! (Just kidding, you set that up so perfectly, I had to...) But seriously, Jasey is a master; a gifted and talented athlete who trained carving his entire life. Hard to match that!
It's like people arguing whether Muay Thai is better than Karate, or if a Soviet style of boxing is better than a Peek-a-boo style that Mike Tyson used.
Not really, this thread is more about the appreciation and in-depth analysis of different carving styles. I don't think anyone is really concerned with which is "better" or "best". Those would obviously be subjective aesthetic judgements anyway. And besides, everybody knows Muay Thai is better than Karate, who would bother to argue about that???
I'm just slaying...
In some ways the terrain influences the style…
The thing that’s most astounding whenever I see @wild-cherry in person is his speed control, even on the steeper pitches, through turns. I’m a fairly front heavy rider and I think most people will agree that you need that on the steeps. But man, I’ll watch him do a few turns, I’ll drop in and do a few, but I’ll be back on his tail in no time. Although he appears super smooth, he’s generating an incredible amount of force. This style runs at a speed deficit, which he really needs where he rides.
Conversely, I often see the Asian styles on more modest slopes. They don’t need, or even want, to scrub speed. But they still get low and look really cool.
I like to have the right tool for the job… and still aspire to carve the Revi steeps without resorting to stivots & slarves to control my speed.
Big White, BC, Canada
well maybe i'm a bit confused because this thread is basically (over)analyzing body positions. It gave me the impression that there was a functional purpose behind it. But if it's just for looks and which looks cooler, then yeah it is subjective.
It gave me the impression that there was a functional purpose behind it.
Creating content is a goal in itself haha...
But as I explained above, I want to make a YouTube video this season about some different carving styles so I'm basically looking for some help with research and to gather some other points of view so the video will be well informed and accurate.
Everybody surely has an opinion on which style looks coolest or is the most fun to practice, but that's not the main focus of my planned video or this topic. Notwithstanding the Technical Riding Competition circuit in Asia, freecarving is not a competitive sport. So there's no "functional purpose" beyond helping each individual carver achieve the turns they want to make. I think a proper nomenclature and analysis will helpful to many. A year ago this was very confusing to me. Learning what I have recently on this subject (in this topic and from other sources) has helped me begin to understand, for example, why narrow boards and steep stances are favoured by so many riders, and understanding has helped me to appreciate the differences and similarities.
I'm just slaying...
There are several other carving styles.
The Korua carving surf style.
The Swiss pureboarding carving style.
The EC carving style from Swoard.
And what I also really like is the style from the Russian Funcarve snowboard school. With supermans and laydowns.
@daniel-pesch You're right of course. And again I might have just lumped these styles together except my friend Andrey (www.youtube.com/@bfreeap) schooled my in the difference between "Eurocarving" and Russian Extremecarving.
I was not aware, however, that the Pureboarding was different from the Swoard style. Can you show us some videos of those that make it more clear please?
I'm just slaying...
Here are a few videos and links about pureboarding. I don't know how different these styles are. I went to two events around 2012. I got myself a hardboot setup again back then. And I realized that it really isn't my thing anymore. After a high-speed run and a tilt, I did a triple somersault, broke my right wrist, and bruised my right hand. I hit my head on my hand with my helmet on.
Both hands were in casts and splints for 8 weeks.
Then, two or three years ago, I spent a day with Petr and had him show me the Swoard technique. On a Korua Bullet Train Plus.
I currently have four snowboards at home.
Pureboarding Bastard, Hardboot
Korua Pencil Plus
Korua Bullet Train Plus
Stranda Cheater
And from December, the new G4.
I'm currently considering whether to take part in a week-long Funcarve.ru event with the Russians at the beginning of the new year.
